Serious speaker help!

regarding Cyrus products and other hifi related threads
Alex Mc
Five+
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:22 am
Location: Manchester

Serious speaker help!

Postby Alex Mc » Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:45 pm

Hello all,

I need some serious help. To cut a long story short, I have a dac xp +, streamline 2 and two stereo 200’s. Until recently I was using Dali Ikon 6’s and was happy with the sound other than it lacked bass and was too ‘bright’. So I bought some used immaculate PMC24’s to replace the Dalis. Now, the bass is great but it almost felt like half of the music disappeared and was a massive step back, which came as a big surprise looking at the reviews and price difference of the speakers. To help solve the problem, I currently have the PMC’s driving the bass and the Dalis the highs, which sounds good but isn’t a permanent solution. The PMC’s also can’t deliver to the volumes that I want and distort too soon, which the Dalis never did. I wonder if the 26’s can solve the problem but don’t want to buy then and be disappointed. I can’t afford to buy new and am happy enough for older speakers, but need some serious advice on what can sort this problem!! I am fond of Dalis but also potentially B&W. To make matters more complicated, the internet radio sounds a lot fuller and warmer than Tidal through the Streamline , so I’m not sure if the problem is a combination of many things.

Advice greatly welcomed!
Thanks

Ianmac
Addicted
Addicted
Posts: 1031
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:17 am
Location: Ayrshire Scotland

Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby Ianmac » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:42 am

This might help you.

.https://electronics.howstuffworks.com/h ... tivity.htm

You have selected two speakers of different design philosophy, almost 3db difference in sound level output for the same input and different amplifier load impedance 6 Ohm versus 8 Ohm

Your Cyrus amp is rated at (Max) 200 watts into 6 Ohm,(Dali) Cyrus dont give a full tech spec but its likely to only deliver around 150 watts into 8 Ohms(PMC).
The PMC will give you a 89db sound level at 1m , The Dali approx 92 db ,both from the same input level.
To get the same sound level from the PMC as the Dali you will need more power from your amp but your amp is looking at a higher impedance 8 ohms and will deliver less power into the increased load so have an issue.
The theory ties in with your description of the PMC's performance and the Cyrus amp overloading (distortion)

Im assuming your PMC's are transmission line speakers so extended Bass performance ( subject to room length) while the Dali being rear ported may be more difficult to place in a room for best response.
The Dalis are a better match for your amp than PMC Id be trying to sort out your original issues with these or look for a better amp!!
Im sure others will give you feed back . It would be usefull if you could give us the size of your listening room.
Sytem 1.
Engineered SA-NMR Renderer (Ianmac PSU) :BelCanto CD-2: Technics 1200 (Ianmac Bearing + Ianmac PSU+Ianmac arm): DACT-Ianmac phono pre >Benchmark DAC2 HGC>2*Ianmac-Hypex NCore monos> ATCSCM40 : Ianmac filters
System 2
Engineered SA-NMR Renderer (Ianmac PSU) :Topping D50 DAC.Sony CDP D11 pro: 2*-Hypex Ncore monos: Kef ref1-2.
IMF's

User avatar
Joe
Addicted
Addicted
Posts: 1061
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:30 pm
Contact:

Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby Joe » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:44 am

Your amp is should be powerful enough for the speakers but it sounds like you play rather loud. A more powerful amp would solve this but to be honest it sounds like you just don't like the presentation of the PMC speakers. The 26 are a big step up but that's a big risk buying blind. Do you not have a local dealer who could suggest another option you might be able to audition at home? They might even take the others in part exchange.
Michell Gyro Dec, SME IV, Ortofon Cadenza Black, Project Phono Box RS + Power Box.
Aurender N100H, Chord Hugo TT.
Luxman L-590AX II, PMC Fact 12 Signature.

User avatar
callen24
Addicted
Addicted
Posts: 3478
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:39 am
Location: lesta

Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby callen24 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:05 pm

can you give us an idea of your room size?
shape?
what else is in it?
are your speakers near furniture?
windows?
type of flooring?

And give us an idea of when you have been happy with the sound?
gigs, clubs

give a few examples of music you might play?
cyrus stream X2, Oppo HA-1SE, IMFs, NORD OneUP, VA Beethoven Baby Grand
ML binarystar digital, DenchXLR, RFCneptune RCA, VanDamme OFC spk cable. AG 500 ac regenerator and Townsend Seismic sink stand, sonority roller platform
rega RP6, AT95e/paratrace, Clearaudio nano, sub-platter upgrade
Former owner of 20 Cyrus boxes

Alex Mc
Five+
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:22 am
Location: Manchester

Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby Alex Mc » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:09 am

Hello all,

Thank you for your replies and here are the answers to your questions:

Firstly, I forgot to mention about the room and position - which is completely inappropriate!!! But there is nothing that I can do about this. I've attached a photo to give you idea, hope it works and sorry for the small size but it won't let me upload and larger. Basically, the room is an old conservatory 8mx5mx4m apex. The system is in a corner and apart from the sofa, all surfaces are hard.

I do play loud sometimes, which is when I want to hear the system at its best. When I get down to about 20dB, the PMC bass starts distorting (which never used to happen on the Dali's). The amp will definitely push further, but I obviously haven't gone much further than this. So it feels like the speaker limitation rather than the amp?

I was always happy with the Dali sound, it was just to focused on the highs with a distinct lack of bass (which I'm sure has as much to do with the room than anything else). In terms of music, I listen to all sorts, from Manchester bands, to house, trance and chilled electronic. To give a couple of recent examples, Wolf Alice Don't Delete The Kisses sounds great - the voice clear, the bass from the PMC's good but the highs from the Dali's make it uncomfortable at higher volumes and really take over. Future Islands Day Glow Fire the same thing, everything is perfect but the drums are too 'bright', they are so loud it spoils the flow of the rest of the music, as your ears are forced to focus on them, if that makes sense.

I mentioned the radio on my original thread - I don't listen to anywhere near the same volumes, but the music is markedly softer and easier to listen to, seeming to have a much better stereo image (if that's the correct terminology) than Tidal, which is the source for all my music. So I'm not sure if it is a combination of everything together.

Locations where I have heard great sounds are always in hifi shops such as Superfi in Stockport, but the room is ideal, small and full of soft furnishings of course!

Maybe I'm just really awkward, come to think of it the wife has been telling me that for a decade...….

Cyrus 1 (250x188).jpg
Cyrus 1 (250x188).jpg (71.72 KiB) Viewed 473 times

User avatar
hifinutt
Addicted
Addicted
Posts: 4788
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:21 pm

Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby hifinutt » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:21 am

yes , not the easiest room !! all that glass etc

i have some beautiful horns in hard room and have had a number of amps and dacs on them . including the supernait 2 , sugden a21se . these were fab amps but all too much for my sensitive ears in this room . so using a very gentle amp like a arcam a75 and a valve dac which gives a big soundstage , a gentle sound which is smooth and not fatiguing . ok it may not have the amazing grunt and fastness of the sugden but it suits me beautifully

maybe you could try some different pre amp and dac rather than the dac xp ?? something more gentle perhaps .
1]bc pre 3 vbs
msb s200 power amp
/vbs1 FM1 tuner
rotel cd /teac ud-ho1 , tannoy eaton legacy 2] arcam a75 , jolida modwright dac marantz sa8005 RFC impulse ta`us horns

User avatar
hifinutt
Addicted
Addicted
Posts: 4788
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:21 pm

Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby hifinutt » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:27 am

i don`t think you are near brum else i would bring round a pre amp but there may be others who could .
1]bc pre 3 vbs
msb s200 power amp
/vbs1 FM1 tuner
rotel cd /teac ud-ho1 , tannoy eaton legacy 2] arcam a75 , jolida modwright dac marantz sa8005 RFC impulse ta`us horns

User avatar
callen24
Addicted
Addicted
Posts: 3478
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:39 am
Location: lesta

Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby callen24 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:04 am

i’m going to que up day glow fire later

Is there lots of glass, that we can’t see in the pic?

are the pmc virtually new, ie have they been run in?

it might be worth checking that you have mixed up the wiring ie have you got negative connected to negative etc... then check again

i had the same dali icons with cyrus kit, i loved the ribbon tweeters, but not veryone does, i went to some staf speakers after that.
Last edited by callen24 on Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
cyrus stream X2, Oppo HA-1SE, IMFs, NORD OneUP, VA Beethoven Baby Grand
ML binarystar digital, DenchXLR, RFCneptune RCA, VanDamme OFC spk cable. AG 500 ac regenerator and Townsend Seismic sink stand, sonority roller platform
rega RP6, AT95e/paratrace, Clearaudio nano, sub-platter upgrade
Former owner of 20 Cyrus boxes

User avatar
angelface
Addicted
Addicted
Posts: 2013
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:00 pm

Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby angelface » Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:49 pm

Even if I risk offending the many PMC owners here, I have spent a day listening to various PMC speakers at a dealer in Hull and then gone home and decided that the bass was great but where was the mid-range compared with my Wilson Benesch.

I would consider going further up the Dali range if you like them. Is there a dealer near you so you could pretend you are interested in new ones?

From my basic understanding of room acoustics, with a small room the problem is almost always the bass. Adding thick absorption panels is the best solution rather than soft furnishings. Hifi shops often have them even if they are not obvious.

If the room is bigger then reflections may be an issue so thinner absorption panels may be good at first reflection points.
CDXTSE2/PSX-R(Nordost Silver Line)BC DAC3.7/VBL(Atlas Navigator)MF Baby Mk2(Atlas Navigator)2xMonoX300Sigs(Coherent 4D)WB Arc
HUMAX Freesat+/Sony BDPS280>AVMaster8 and SP+>Spendor C5e>> Monitor Audio RXW12 sub>>4xSpendor SR5

User avatar
hifinutt
Addicted
Addicted
Posts: 4788
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:21 pm

Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby hifinutt » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:27 pm

yes , i rather like dali speakers but not a fan of PMC at all .

May i just gently chide against pretending to be interested in speakers at a dealer . it would not be right imho , if one misleads people then future service and demo`s may be out of the question
1]bc pre 3 vbs
msb s200 power amp
/vbs1 FM1 tuner
rotel cd /teac ud-ho1 , tannoy eaton legacy 2] arcam a75 , jolida modwright dac marantz sa8005 RFC impulse ta`us horns

User avatar
callen24
Addicted
Addicted
Posts: 3478
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:39 am
Location: lesta

Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby callen24 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:39 pm

hifinutt wrote:yes , i rather like dali speakers but not a fan of PMC at all .

May i just gently chide against pretending to be interested in speakers at a dealer . it would not be right imho , if one misleads people then future service and demo`s may be out of the question


i don’t see many dealers demoing PMC with cyrus, i don’t think they are a good combo.

I think your room presents quite a few challenges that might not be fixed with gear.
There are professional companies that do sound treatment, a consultation by them, and room treatment will be a lot less than a new pair of speakers, or change in electronics
cyrus stream X2, Oppo HA-1SE, IMFs, NORD OneUP, VA Beethoven Baby Grand
ML binarystar digital, DenchXLR, RFCneptune RCA, VanDamme OFC spk cable. AG 500 ac regenerator and Townsend Seismic sink stand, sonority roller platform
rega RP6, AT95e/paratrace, Clearaudio nano, sub-platter upgrade
Former owner of 20 Cyrus boxes

User avatar
angelface
Addicted
Addicted
Posts: 2013
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:00 pm

Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby angelface » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:04 pm

hifinutt wrote:May i just gently chide against pretending to be interested in speakers at a dealer . it would not be right imho , if one misleads people then future service and demo`s may be out of the question


:-[ I am afraid to admit I have done this a lot :-\ At Christmas I booked a demo of some power amps as the dealer had a s/h pair I was serious about buying. I really liked them and wanted to buy them as I had got a few demos out of them without buying anything but they had sold them a few days before the demo!

It is difficult to get demos of stuff I want to buy cheap second hand. I try to write a glowing review of the shop afterwards!
CDXTSE2/PSX-R(Nordost Silver Line)BC DAC3.7/VBL(Atlas Navigator)MF Baby Mk2(Atlas Navigator)2xMonoX300Sigs(Coherent 4D)WB Arc
HUMAX Freesat+/Sony BDPS280>AVMaster8 and SP+>Spendor C5e>> Monitor Audio RXW12 sub>>4xSpendor SR5

User avatar
Joe
Addicted
Addicted
Posts: 1061
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:30 pm
Contact:

Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby Joe » Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:32 pm

To be clear, you're using two Stereo 200's as mono power amps? Should be enough grunt for most speakers.

If you were to buy new speakers, what would be your budget (including the sale price of the ones you have of course)? Assuming you don't want to mess around with positioning, I think you need some different speakers. Something reasonably sensitive with a couple of hefty bass drivers and an easy treble.

A different amp would change the character of the speakers to a degree but the fundamentals would still be the same.
Michell Gyro Dec, SME IV, Ortofon Cadenza Black, Project Phono Box RS + Power Box.
Aurender N100H, Chord Hugo TT.
Luxman L-590AX II, PMC Fact 12 Signature.

User avatar
frederico
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:10 pm
Location: UK

Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby frederico » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:17 pm

Can I ask where the other speaker is? Is it out of shot, to the left of the sideboard? And where is your listening position?

I’m struggling to see how you’ll get any sort of decent sound with that placement and room to be honest. The PMCs are probably fine but all that glass together with your asymmetrical positioning is going to give you horrible reflections and dead spots. It’s likely you’ve just been lucky with the Dalis but slightly different placement / response from the PMCs is highlighting the underlying problem.
--------
Mac Mini / creative soundblaster E5 soundcard
8 DAC QX
DAB 8.0
Kef R300
--------

User avatar
hifinutt
Addicted
Addicted
Posts: 4788
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:21 pm

Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby hifinutt » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:53 pm

angelface wrote:
hifinutt wrote:May i just gently chide against pretending to be interested in speakers at a dealer . it would not be right imho , if one misleads people then future service and demo`s may be out of the question


:-[ I am afraid to admit I have done this a lot :-\ At Christmas I booked a demo of some power amps as the dealer had a s/h pair I was serious about buying. I really liked them and wanted to buy them as I had got a few demos out of them without buying anything but they had sold them a few days before the demo!

It is difficult to get demos of stuff I want to buy cheap second hand. I try to write a glowing review of the shop afterwards!


ah confession is good for the soul !! i will be confessing mine later !
1]bc pre 3 vbs
msb s200 power amp
/vbs1 FM1 tuner
rotel cd /teac ud-ho1 , tannoy eaton legacy 2] arcam a75 , jolida modwright dac marantz sa8005 RFC impulse ta`us horns