Serious speaker help!

regarding Cyrus products and other hifi related threads
Ianmac
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Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby Ianmac » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:02 pm

Having had a look at your photo,I have to agree with Frederico.
Glass and sound don't go well together.
I wouldnt rush to spend any more cash on amps or speakers
Do you have any form of curtains or soft blinds?
Can you hang temorary covers over the glass to try and absorb the high frequencies ?
Can you try your amp and speakers in a different conventional room ?
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Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby angelface » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:27 am

Joe wrote:To be clear, you're using two Stereo 200's as mono power amps?


He must be biamping as you cannot use Stereo 200's in mono!
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Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby jules » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:25 am

Alex Mc wrote:Hello all,
Cyrus 1 (250x188).jpg


If you can post more (and higher resolution) photos it would be useful thanks. Speaker isolation and placement is very important... 8)
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Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby callen24 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:54 pm

i’m still not sure whether these pmc speakers have been run in, or are they s/h?

it might seem unconventional, but in addition to blinds/curtains you could look at some low stands on castors ( that lock) , for the speakers so that when you are listening you can create a triangle in the centre of the room with the speakers and yourself when you are having a listening session.

I listened to the future islands track today, with hifi it can seem like there is no bass because it is tight and clear, rather than boom. This track felt a bit like that, but if i put my hands , palm down, on the sofa either side of me it was like touching a washing machine
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Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby Alex Mc » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:34 pm

Thanks for your help once again. To answer some of the questions in no particular order:

Room - yes there is glass with wooden frames on all 3 sides and the roof, the rear wall is the one in the photo. I can't upload any better quality photos sorry as it doesn't let me. But basically the speakers are in the corner of a rectangular room. The ceiling above the hifi is flat and about 2m high, coming out towards where I took the photo for about 2m (above the wooden floor bit), then raises up to a glass apex about 4m high. It is basically a conservatory.
The other left hand PMC speaker is right next to the Dali, in the corner.
Curtains/blinds/covers - absolutely no way whatsoever on this earth would the wife think about allowing this!!!!!!!!!
The PMC's although visibly look new are definitely run in. I've also had them running for probably 50+ hours.
The Stereo 200's are bi-amped - one driving the PMC's (low) and the other Dali's (highs) i.e. there is no connection to the PMC highs and the Dali lows - hope this makes sense.
In terms of speak positioning, I've tried temporarily placing them at various spots, but find that if I move them from the current location, I losethe bass, no doubt as a result of the room characteristics.

I understand that the room is a problem, but I'm convinced it isn't the issue, as the Dali mid/highs sound so much better than the PMC, just too pronounced and 'in your face'. It feels like the Dali's would be perfect if I could just turn the bass up (and/or possibly the highs down a bit).

I think Angelface hit the nail on the head-the PMC's mid range seems to be almost non-existent and that's what is causing my issue rather than the dynamics of the room.

If I was to trade the PMC and possibly Dalis in, I wouldn't have much more to spend to be honest, possibly an additional £500. I'm not sure what the PMC's would fetch on e-bay at present and the Dali's aren't worth much as they recently had a full ceiling and 200 litres of hot water collapse onto them although it didn't affect the sound!!!!!!!!

I wonder whether some Dali's from further up the range may do the trick. I'd also be happy to look at individuals that custom make speakers. I do not know of anybody and have no experience but wonder if this could be worth a go?

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Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby mojo » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:58 pm

I hope you take this in the spirit intended (i.e. intended to be helpful, not to criticise): is there any chance that you inadvertently wired the mid/high side out of phase on the PMC's? I did this a few years back and the effect was weird, and caused a big reduction in the midrange unless you got right up close to one or other of the speakers.

I've owned (and still own) a pair of similar PMCs (FB1i's) and they have quite acceptable midrange, so if wiring is not the problem, perhaps there is a fault with them (e.g. component damage in the crossovers)?

I have also considered custom speakers in the past, but one thing you have to bear in mind: you take a huge hit on resale value when you come to sell them, because of the uncertainty factor.

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Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby hifinutt » Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:11 pm

that sounds a good thing to consider
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Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby callen24 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:11 am

always worth checking the wiring, then check again. Plugs on cable can get mixed up, with the wrong colour being put on


After your last post i was thinking abourt what you were saying, can you get a home demo of a dali sub, and ask them to set it up?

I know i’ve put in a lot of ideas but there are specialist blindcompanies where the blinds virtually disappear when they are folded back. But you can’t necessarily imagine that without seeing them
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Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby jules » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:19 am

Alex Mc wrote: I can't upload any better quality photos sorry as it doesn't let me.


https://imgur.com/upload?beta

https://www.rdhworld.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=14276

this should help 8)
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Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby zippy » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:31 am

callen24 wrote:always worth checking the wiring, then check again. Plugs on cable can get mixed up, with the wrong colour being put on


... especially with the bus cables !
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Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby RichardLowe » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:55 am

There have been many suggestions so far, but I don't think this has been addressed. (My apologies I've not read every reply exhaustively as I'm short of time!).

It appears you've tried a one-for-one swap with the Dali's, slotting the PMC 24's into exactly the same physical spot. However, these are two very different speakers with two very different design philosophies. The dispersion of sound from the PMC's will be very different to that from the Dali's as a result of these different designs, so the likelihood of swapping the PMC directly for the Dali and getting the ideal sound output for the PMC is small I would think. Have you played around with positioning the PMC 24's at all - changing the toe-in, distance from the back wall, width apart, etc.? Given the very challenging conditions the speakers are positioned within (hard surfaces all round and asymmetric position on the rear wall), I think you will always struggle unless you can address certain aspects. My own listening room is a sun lounge with many large glass windows and an asymmetrical shape. By adding vertical blinds, soft roller blinds for the double-doors that lead to the outside, and foot deep pelmet curtains along the entire room, the acoustics have improved massively from the echoing mess it was initially! From what you say your wife won't entertain any of these so I suspect you will always have a problem of one kind or another.

To verify if the PMC's are a) working correctly, and b) have a sound to your liking, can you try setting them up in a different room just for a quick test? If you can temporarily remove the off-centre positioning and extreme conditions (hard floors and glass all round), you should then be able to hear the true character of the speakers and also be able to see how moving them closer/further from a rear wall, or toe'ing them in/out, or further/closer apart alters their sound. Its amazing just how a small difference in positioning can make to bass, mid and treble, and completely change sound-staging. If the speakers sound the same in a different room then there's either something wrong with the speakers or the sound of the PMC is simply not to your taste.
Last edited by RichardLowe on Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby CharlieN » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:49 pm

Can I just check - you seem to suggest that you are using one set of speakers for the bass, and the other for mid/upper?? Is that correct? If so, that feels like a very unusual set up, but I might have completely mis-understood the post.
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Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby callen24 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:35 pm

CharlieN wrote:Can I just check - you seem to suggest that you are using one set of speakers for the bass, and the other for mid/upper?? Is that correct? If so, that feels like a very unusual set up, but I might have completely mis-understood the post.

he is saying that.
So i’m also thinking they will be different impedance and therefore a strain on the amp, but also make volume matching hard. Inless he has two stereo 200 s

There are people with much more tech knowledge. isn’t there a problem with running speakers this way at high volumes?
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Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby RichardLowe » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:37 pm

It will make the impedance loading very different from purely the PMC or purely the Dali, of course. But I think you miss the point. He is running them this way temporarily as the Dali's give him the treble he likes, and the PMC's the bass. He stated that in his OP. His issue is the PMC's have lost all the mid/treble he's used to in the Dali's.
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Re: Serious speaker help!

Postby RichardLowe » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:42 pm

Something else occurred to me in my last reply to Callen. I've noticed that every time I've had a major step forward in the quality of the speakers and/or amps I use, the balance of sound tends to change and sometimes dramatically. Several times now, my initial impressions after an upgrade have been the mid or treble appears to have recessed in volume, but what I was actually experiencing was the greater resolution and better timing leading to a more relaxed listening experience. After getting used to these changes I could appreciate what was actually happening, but the instantaneous impression on first hearing the new component was "where has the mid or treble gone?". Could it be something like this you're experiencing?
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