Hi Res (again)

regarding Cyrus products and other hifi related threads
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Hi Res (again)

Postby MiniCoupeman » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:35 pm

While contemplating the other thread re Hi Res recommendations it occurred to me that the ones that really sing, the ones that I would use to demonstrate that Hi Res is better than plain vanilla CD, are almost all sourced from analogue......and if that is the case then......

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Re: Hi Res (again)

Postby SimonJ » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:38 pm

Exactly!
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Re: Hi Res (again)

Postby angelface » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:24 am

So if I was ever to move from CD I should

1) Go to streaming for the convenience or

2) Go to vinyl for the inconvenience?
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Re: Hi Res (again)

Postby callen24 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:23 pm

angelface wrote:So if I was ever to move from CD I should

1) Go to streaming for the convenience or

2) Go to vinyl for the inconvenience?

surely your next step should be buying simbo bel canto cd player? O0
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Re: Hi Res (again)

Postby roadsterg » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:42 pm

My solution is to digitise all my vinyl and save it on Minimserver. That way I have the convenience of playing seamlessly and using any playlists or random choices. My conversions are all made at 192KHz sample rate with the best kit I can afford. Unfortunately there is no way to buy new material which is true Hi res and that includes new vinyl. I am just about to review the so-called remastered vinyl of Annie Lennox best sellers right here. Eventually modern recording studios will catch up and use Hi-Res digital equipment but all of those who believed that 44.1 or 48 KHz sampling was good enough will have a big investment in what is now obsolete electronics.

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Re: Hi Res (again)

Postby julianh » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:30 am

roadsterg wrote:.... but all of those who believed that 44.1 or 48 KHz sampling was good enough will have a big investment in what is now obsolete electronics.


For my ears, the biggest improvement in sound quality was gained by moving from 16 bits at 44.1 KHz to 24 bits at 48 KHz. There was no further improvement moving to 96 KHz or higher. Maybe 32 bit might make a difference but 24/96 sounded no better than 24/48 to me. But then I do have very light tinnitus.
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Re: Hi Res (again)

Postby MiniCoupeman » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:27 pm

I listen to CD and my (very) big library via a Melco BUT the obvious conclusion is - sorry to use an old quote - ‘you can’t polish a turd’.

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Re: Hi Res (again)

Postby Czechchris » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:52 pm

It seems to me that a direct comparison of the same track in 16/44.1 wav, 24/96 flac, dfs 5.6Mhz, dfs 11.2 MHz. would help to see if you can tell the difference and decide if it is worth paying for.

AND YOU CAN! For FREE.

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Re: Hi Res (again)

Postby simbo » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:15 pm

callen24 wrote:
angelface wrote:So if I was ever to move from CD I should

1) Go to streaming for the convenience or

2) Go to vinyl for the inconvenience?

surely your next step should be buying simbo bel canto cd player? O0


+1 ;)

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Re: Hi Res (again)

Postby mason59 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:54 pm

Let's be clear that it's physically impossible for humans to hear anything above cd specifications 44khz.
These are fixed human limitations and represent the maximum we can hear. There's no way to hear anything above the current cd kHz standard.
Therefore 192khz will be heard the same as a cd.
So we come to bit depth. You absoluty cannot change a 16 bit recording to 24 bit without degrading the sound.
I have listened and directly compared cd, perfect rip cd and so called hi RES recordings of all types and generally found there to be little difference between them. Most so called 24bit albums are just upscaled CDs and sound worse than cd.
I haven't found any compelling evidence that 24 bit is superior to 16 bit.
The technical details dont matter as its all about what we can hear. Yes I'm sure 192/24 is technically superior but it's irrelevant as we absolutely cannot hear 192/24. At best this will sound like 44/24.
This is the same argument as digital cables. Does a £1000 HDMI give a better picture than a £10 HDMI.
It absolutely cannot as digital is fixed and the amount you pay can't change that. And yet people still insist the more you pay the better it is. It can't be with digital
Humans have infinite capacity to con themselves and when you've paid £25 or more for a 192/24 album it's the human way to con themselves it's better than its £2 cd counterpart
And this is what is happening with hires audio.
Humans can't hear it. And there's nothing we can do about it.
Save your money and spend it on a better CD player if that's what you think you need. In that way you will get better sound. Spending it on hires audio is a waste of money.

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Re: Hi Res (again)

Postby zippy » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:25 pm

While I don't agree with all you say, I have found it's perfectly possible for a higher res (24/192) recording (WAV) to sound worse than a lower resolution WAV of the same recording.
I therefore don't waste my money any more on higher res, ripped CD's are good enough for my ears.
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Re: Hi Res (again)

Postby callen24 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:52 pm

mason59 wrote:Let's be clear that it's physically impossible for humans to hear anything above cd specifications 44khz.
These are fixed human limitations and represent the maximum we can hear. There's no way to hear anything above the current cd kHz standard.
Therefore 192khz will be heard the same as a cd.
So we come to bit depth. You absoluty cannot change a 16 bit recording to 24 bit without degrading the sound.
I have listened and directly compared cd, perfect rip cd and so called hi RES recordings of all types and generally found there to be little difference between them. Most so called 24bit albums are just upscaled CDs and sound worse than cd.
I haven't found any compelling evidence that 24 bit is superior to 16 bit.
The technical details dont matter as its all about what we can hear. Yes I'm sure 192/24 is technically superior but it's irrelevant as we absolutely cannot hear 192/24. At best this will sound like 44/24.
This is the same argument as digital cables. Does a £1000 HDMI give a better picture than a £10 HDMI.
It absolutely cannot as digital is fixed and the amount you pay can't change that. And yet people still insist the more you pay the better it is. It can't be with digital
Humans have infinite capacity to con themselves and when you've paid £25 or more for a 192/24 album it's the human way to con themselves it's better than its £2 cd counterpart


And this is what is happening with hires audio.
Humans can't hear it. And there's nothing we can do about it.
Save your money and spend it on a better CD player if that's what you think you need. In that way you will get better sound. Spending it on hires audio is a waste of money.


you have some strong opinions, which i'm not hostile too. Time might prove you right
i can't imagine i could tell the difference between the amused to death hi-res, available as 48/24, 96/24, 192/24 . The normal cd is amazing as it is

but
expensive digital cables - do you think the connectors etc can make a difference?

not hearing above 44khz - true, but don't we also feel music, isn't that important?

upscaling - i can see the logic of what you say, but do you apply that to new original material recorded at 96/24?

I totally agree that CDs are the cheapest source of music, bought 2nd hand, but when they came out they were the equal of hi-res, in terms of being a rip off.

Every other discussion i've ever seen on this topic has led me to conclude that the quality of the recording, and care with mastering is the decisive factor.
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Re: Hi Res (again)

Postby roadsterg » Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:30 am

mason59 wrote:Let's be clear that it's physically impossible for humans to hear anything above cd specifications 44khz.
These are fixed human limitations and represent the maximum we can hear. There's no way to hear anything above the current cd kHz standard.
Therefore 192khz will be heard the same as a cd.

This statement is inaccurate because two vital words are missing. Humans cannot hear sine waves at frequencies above about 16 KHz. It is a common myth that all sound is composed of sine waves based on the mathematical procedure whereby it is possible to represent a non-linear function with sinusoidal components. But its certainly not possible to do so with any degree of accuracy using only terms with frequencies within the audible range. Human hearing has evolved over unimaginable periods of time and one of the survival imperatives that define the biology is the need to hear approaching danger and to hunt down potential food. Thus our hearing is sensitive to rustling leaves, breaking twigs etc. etc. Percussion instruments have obvious non-linear output which can only be captured by the very best recording devices, string instruments produce all kinds of sounds overlayed on the basic frequency of vibration. If they didn't a violin would sound the same as a guitar.
The sound from your music system is entirely a matter of personal taste and if you find CDs the most enjoyable format then there is no need to put forward a pseudo scientific justification. Many people prefer vinyl, particularly the vinyl which has been recorded and reproduced in a 100% analogue chain. If the technology that did this is now obsolete then in my opinion using digital recording methods at the highest possible sample rates is essential.

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Re: Hi Res (again)

Postby Elgar » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:49 pm

I couldn't agree more - when I first got my Signature streamer I regularly compared standard res to hi res, and on a couple of discs also to the cd (through my cd sig). I've even compared the most recent Coldplay album on standard, and hi-res streaming, cd, and 5.1 through my Oppo direct into power amps. There's no doubt for me that hi-res has more detail than standard, and sounds more analogue - in general. The Coldplay album master is really quite poor so I'm not talking about that, but certainly for good quality masters (DG recording of Boston Symphony Orchestra - Shostakovitch series for example) the difference is significant. I don't have any of the science behind this, and I'd rather pay for cheaper discs, so I'm not hoping that hi-res is better. But my ears tell me different......

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Re: Hi Res (again)

Postby Hifihelp » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:15 pm

I don’t think it’s as simple as is made out, with respect to the posters view. I’ve no doubt we can hear the benefits of hi res music.

https://www.dawsons.co.uk/blog/why-reco ... khz-16-bit