Wilmslow ATC SCM100 (K100) + Hypex Fusion?

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Wilmslow ATC SCM100 (K100) + Hypex Fusion?

Postby mojo » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:43 pm

Wilmslow have appeared a few times here in the past, but not as far as I can tell since the Hypex Fusion plate amps became available. Has anyone looked at making up a K100 kit (which is essentially the original design for ATC's SCM100) and fitting it with a 3-way Fusion amp?

From a technical point of view, it seems that you would be getting something that's very similar in sound to the active version of the SCM100, but with the ability to configure the crossover frequencies (and frequency response in general) as you want.

The main obstacle is of course cost and residual value. The passive kit is over £3.5k + shipping, and then an extra £1k for a pair of Fusion amps (a bit more if you want the 500 + 500 + 100W version), so it's a fair bit of cash to lay out on something that you won't be able to demo in advance...

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Re: Wilmslow ATC SCM100 (K100) + Hypex Fusion?

Postby Ianmac » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:36 pm

My second system is moving home to a family member who wants to upgrade.
Im loosing a pair of Hypex Ncores and a Benchmark DAC1 HDR and being offered a Cyrus 8 something with an inbuilt DAC in return !
Trying to get a spec on the old 8 on the cyrus website is proving to be a challenge.( whats going on in Cyrus these days ?)
First thoughs were to find a S/H Benchmark and build another or find a S/H Hypex combo then I remembered Hypex were due to introduce the Fusion range of plate amps with NCore based amp modules. I have a pair of Kef Ref 1.2 speakers with their dual concentric tweeter /Mid and Bass unit so a Fusion100/250/250 would be more than enough to drive them and give me enough headroom if I changed speakers. The fusion has its inbuilt DAC and A to D converter for analogue inputs, cost around £1000. slightly less for the Fusion 100/125/125.
A S/H DAC + a pair of Ncores would be about £1500

I did research this some two years ago with a view to changing my ATC SCM 40's with a DCLP and 2 NCores +Ucd. I got the power spec for the ATC SCM40 Actives. Crossover was 380 and 3K5 but the power figures I got are not to hand at the moment but I recollect they were lower than I thought. I stopped because if I modded the ATC's their residual value would be decimated. My KEFS are now low value speakers so have no concerns re modding them

Ive started reading the long thread on the Fusion amps on DIY audio and am just at the point where people are receiving delivery, so a fair bit to go yet. Have downloaded the Hypex info sheets and data on their software so need to find time for a long read.

I have similar concerns re the inability to evaluate the fusion - remembering I moved into Hypex Ucd and NCores way before most, based on their technical spec alone.
Im concerned the setting up of the crossovers may be a challenge as I would want the speakers to be in free space or a Large Studio rather than a domestic room. I cant access a good studio these days so its outside on a sunny day ? I did buy a copy of the Arta software for setting up LS crossovers but it was a steep learning curve which I couldnt really master without hands on.

If anyone has any experience with the Hypex panel amps or setting up the crossovers I would be grateful for any feedback.

Equally if any one knows of or sees a Benchmark DAC1 HDR or DAC 2 for sale please let me know
Sytem 1.
Engineered SA-NMR Renderer (Ianmac PSU) :BelCanto CD-2: Technics 1200 (Ianmac Bearing + Ianmac PSU+Ianmac arm): DACT-Ianmac phono pre >Benchmark DAC2 HGC>2*Ianmac-Hypex NCore monos> ATCSCM40 : Ianmac filters
System 2
Engineered SA-NMR Renderer (Ianmac PSU) :Topping D50 DAC.Sony CDP D11 pro: 2*-Hypex Ncore monos: Kef ref1-2.
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Re: Wilmslow ATC SCM100 (K100) + Hypex Fusion?

Postby mojo » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:44 pm

Ianmac wrote:Im loosing a pair of Hypex Ncores and a Benchmark DAC1 HDR and being offered a Cyrus 8 something with an inbuilt DAC in return !


Hmmm that doesn't sound like a great deal!

I thought you might have strong views on this, as I can recall you mentioning the dilemma about modding your SCM40's - in fact it was that thread that was the seed of this one. I'm in the same position - I think it would trash the value of my SCM40s if I stuck a plate amp on the back - even with the Hypex name on it.

One of the reasons why I was thinking of going via Wilmslow is that they have had a pretty intimate knowledge of the midrange ATC's for many years, so they would know plenty about setting up the crossover points on the Fusion to match the original ATC passive original - so that would be the baseline from which to start tweaking.

Back on the not-so-great deal, is it possible that you're getting an 8 QX DAC? If so, the specs are here:

https://www.cyrusaudio.com/wp-content/u ... n-v7.0.pdf

70Wp/c both driven, so not too weedy.

The Benchmark DAC1 HDRs do seem to come up occasionally on PFM - one only last week went for £450 shipped - but it did sell very quickly!
Last edited by mojo on Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Wilmslow ATC SCM100 (K100) + Hypex Fusion?

Postby mojo » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:48 pm

If anyone knows of anyone selling secondhand ATC SCM50/100 driver parts, I would be interested to hear about that too - or possibly even original passive SCM50/100s with bashed about cabs.

There's someone selling a K100 kit-built pair on Ebay at the moment (with semi-matt black cabinets that I couldn't live with), but the price is too high to take them apart to re-use the drivers.

[I should also add - in fairness to Wilmslow - that the £3.5k figure above is for the fully veneered and finished cabinets. You can go a bit cheaper with a flat-packed self-assembled kit if you want.]

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Re: Wilmslow ATC SCM100 (K100) + Hypex Fusion?

Postby Ianmac » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:19 pm

Thanks for the link and info
Read through all the threads on DIY audio but its difficult to follow the detail without having hands on. Generally the amps get a very positive reception.
Still to go through the Hypex info and software I download.
I'm looking for anything on setting speakers up using audio frequency sweeps and pulse waveforms into the amp , recording the speaker output via a mike and getting that on ones computer screen superimposed over the filters as one tweaked in the amp set up.
A few on the DIY forum are asking the same question.

These Amps are new and already there are suggestions of a firmware upgrade to get rid of niggles so waiting a couple of months might be a smart move.
Hypex put up the Fusion prices on Jan 1st by 10% and we are facing a possible a roller coaster ride on pound to euro rates.

https://www.minidsp.com/applications/ac ... asurements. This may be of help its a bit simpler than anything ive found so far.

Have joined PFM so will keep an eye on their Classifieds in my search for a Benchmark DAC1 HDR.
Sytem 1.
Engineered SA-NMR Renderer (Ianmac PSU) :BelCanto CD-2: Technics 1200 (Ianmac Bearing + Ianmac PSU+Ianmac arm): DACT-Ianmac phono pre >Benchmark DAC2 HGC>2*Ianmac-Hypex NCore monos> ATCSCM40 : Ianmac filters
System 2
Engineered SA-NMR Renderer (Ianmac PSU) :Topping D50 DAC.Sony CDP D11 pro: 2*-Hypex Ncore monos: Kef ref1-2.
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Re: Wilmslow ATC SCM100 (K100) + Hypex Fusion?

Postby mojo » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:28 am

The Fusion threads on DIYAudio are damned hard work. The first 50 or so pages of the most active thread are mostly 2 or 3 characters arguing about AES67 and whether DSD requires translation to PCM and a load of other apparently irrelevant bollox.

It looks like it might be getting back on track now (after well over 1000 posts, most of which seem to have been by people eager to show off their knowledge of tech abbreviations) - I wait with anticipation to see whether the chap from Denmark can come up with a simple step-by-step guide!

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Re: Wilmslow ATC SCM100 (K100) + Hypex Fusion?

Postby Ianmac » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:39 am

yes DIY audio threads can be hard going.
Ive offered to help a lad from Poland with translation who is prepared to do a write up on the filter build software.
I have been playing with the filter build software and slowly getting it to work but I dont have a fusion attached so limited functionality.
Im still working through the filter types and their properties.
Linkwitz lab websites are proving helpful re filter type info and filter system design. Ive still much work to do and more than curious about how one would line up the speakers in a DIY environment. No one on any of the forums seems to want to talk about it.
Im also slightly concerned with the A to D conversion needed to play audio through the Fusion. The feedback I got via the Art of Sound forum was that it was far from perfect and one could hear the difference (degrade) when using a High Q analogue source ie a good turntable - which I like to think I have and I use it frequently.
To mod my Kef speakers I could get away with the 125 Watt amps so an investment of around £700 (subject to Brexit)
I still havent found the data I had on the power of the analogue amps used by ATC in their 40's. It was much lower than I had thought at the time.
A lot of ground still to cover
Sytem 1.
Engineered SA-NMR Renderer (Ianmac PSU) :BelCanto CD-2: Technics 1200 (Ianmac Bearing + Ianmac PSU+Ianmac arm): DACT-Ianmac phono pre >Benchmark DAC2 HGC>2*Ianmac-Hypex NCore monos> ATCSCM40 : Ianmac filters
System 2
Engineered SA-NMR Renderer (Ianmac PSU) :Topping D50 DAC.Sony CDP D11 pro: 2*-Hypex Ncore monos: Kef ref1-2.
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Re: Wilmslow ATC SCM100 (K100) + Hypex Fusion?

Postby mojo » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:41 am

I'm not sure if the MkI active SCM40s had exactly the same tri-amp pack as the MkII, but the MkII has 150W/60W/32W with xover points at 380Hz and 3.5kHz. They may have tuned the MkII a bit differently but it's probably still a reasonable place to start from with MkI's.

I can see your point about having to take a high quality analogue input and subject it to A>D and D>A with no possibility of passthrough without going through the DSP stage, but I guess that's just the way the world is going!

I'm planning to go to see Wilmslow in a couple of months time. As you probably know, they resell the Fusion amps here, so it will be interesting to hear what they say about how they set them up themselves. Of all the parts sellers in the UK, they have the most to gain by helping DIYers make the best of the product, because most of their business is (as I understand it) DIY/repair/refurb.

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Re: Wilmslow ATC SCM100 (K100) + Hypex Fusion?

Postby Ianmac » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:47 pm

Been away for a few days and just catching up.
I didnt know Wimslow were reselling Hypex but it makes very good sense if they have the facility to align a DIY speaker they sell to a Fusion.
They sell both their DIY kit and Fusion amp + the software /filter setting for the Fusion.
The Diy forum seem to have a few experts posting how to line up a Fusion system but only one guy ds23man seems to know the whole picture. Ill wait till he completes the line up procedure,(he says he has been contracted by Hypex to produce a definitive users guide) and get answers to a few other technical ssues Im not comfortable with before deciding whether to move towards a fusion system.
Will keep ann eye on Wimslow's website.
Sytem 1.
Engineered SA-NMR Renderer (Ianmac PSU) :BelCanto CD-2: Technics 1200 (Ianmac Bearing + Ianmac PSU+Ianmac arm): DACT-Ianmac phono pre >Benchmark DAC2 HGC>2*Ianmac-Hypex NCore monos> ATCSCM40 : Ianmac filters
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Re: Wilmslow ATC SCM100 (K100) + Hypex Fusion?

Postby mojo » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:24 am

Oh FFS - how does anyone ever get any useful info out of DIYAudio? The main Fusion amp thread continues to be almost nothing to do with Fusion Amps. It seems to be almost entirely populated by a small number of people trying to score points against one another.

DS23man would be useful (as he seems to be quite close to Hypex) except that he is constantly drowned out or sidetracked.

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Re: Wilmslow ATC SCM100 (K100) + Hypex Fusion?

Postby Ianmac » Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:32 pm

Yes its frustrating you can waste hours in DIY Audio to get a few gems.
Ive playing with the hypex software but can only get so far without a Fusion amp connected.- Even been looking at active crossovers using IC filters and 3 Amps!
Fusion wins hands down on cost so far
Sytem 1.
Engineered SA-NMR Renderer (Ianmac PSU) :BelCanto CD-2: Technics 1200 (Ianmac Bearing + Ianmac PSU+Ianmac arm): DACT-Ianmac phono pre >Benchmark DAC2 HGC>2*Ianmac-Hypex NCore monos> ATCSCM40 : Ianmac filters
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Engineered SA-NMR Renderer (Ianmac PSU) :Topping D50 DAC.Sony CDP D11 pro: 2*-Hypex Ncore monos: Kef ref1-2.
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Re: Wilmslow ATC SCM100 (K100) + Hypex Fusion?

Postby Ianmac » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:08 pm

I have been going round in square circles trying to determine my next move.

The DIY audio thread has improved with one or two constructive posts on how to set up the speakers/ filters.
Ive decided to dip my toe into the Hypex Active world !
Have bought a Beringer UMC22 USB mike amp and a Beringer ECM8000 measurement mike.
I am currently trying to buy a pair of Fusion 122's on the S/h market and hope to hear from the seller soon.
I am moving my 2nd system to a smaller unit 12 ft by 12 ft so my KEF reference 1-2's (3ways) will be overkill.
Ill sell or swop these and get a pair of two way standmounts to try out the 122. My son has two Celestion SL6's I can play with just now.

Bottom line, if it doesnt work out, I can resell the Fusions or use them bridged with flat filters as a 250 watt amp complete with inbuilt DAC.
Sytem 1.
Engineered SA-NMR Renderer (Ianmac PSU) :BelCanto CD-2: Technics 1200 (Ianmac Bearing + Ianmac PSU+Ianmac arm): DACT-Ianmac phono pre >Benchmark DAC2 HGC>2*Ianmac-Hypex NCore monos> ATCSCM40 : Ianmac filters
System 2
Engineered SA-NMR Renderer (Ianmac PSU) :Topping D50 DAC.Sony CDP D11 pro: 2*-Hypex Ncore monos: Kef ref1-2.
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Re: Wilmslow ATC SCM100 (K100) + Hypex Fusion?

Postby mojo » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:13 am

So you're looking to buy Timbre's modules?

It's a shame you're not modding the Kef's, but it makes sense to start with something more modest.

I've abandoned the thought of finding some bashed-about SCM100's to use as a basis - frankly everything with the ATC brand name on it retains its value too well for that to make any sense. I toyed with the idea of buying the Wilmslow kit speakers that are currently on Ebay - because I could then have done a side-by-side comparison between the Fusion setup and an original ATC 3-driver amp pack - but I would have to throw too much of it away (i.e. the semi-matt black cabinets) so that doesn't make any financial sense either.

So I'm in waiting mode until I'm passing through Leicester and can get to talk with Wilmslow and see what they have to say.

In the meantime I am of course interested to hear what progress you make when the FA122's turn up.

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Re: Wilmslow ATC SCM100 (K100) + Hypex Fusion?

Postby Ianmac » Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:14 pm

looks like its gone Belly Up
Contacted Timbre, agreed a price, sent him my details and asked how he wanted paid and all has gone quiet. Very dodgy in my book. I dont think Ill part with my cash. I cant find a link to a Timbre Audio so am presuming its only his username.

I am now back to the drawing board.
Considering a purchase of a Fusion123, 125 ,125,100 Watt or the 250 watt version direct from Hypex.
If I mod my Kefs and get confidence in setting up the filters I could move the Fusion to my ATCs, just wary that ATC use a 150 watt bass amp and there are various methods used by manufacturers to specify the power output of their amps 250 watts gives me loads of headroom
I did contact the ATC dealer in Glasgow out of passing interest re a pair of SCM40 Actives. They are silly money, quoted me £6800 but said he could do them for less and offered me £500-700 for my passives as a trade in. I wasnt impressed, unfortunately there isn't a decent ATC dealer up here, indeed very few Hi Fi shops.
I must agree anything with an ATC badge seems overpriced. There must be better value for money out there?
Sytem 1.
Engineered SA-NMR Renderer (Ianmac PSU) :BelCanto CD-2: Technics 1200 (Ianmac Bearing + Ianmac PSU+Ianmac arm): DACT-Ianmac phono pre >Benchmark DAC2 HGC>2*Ianmac-Hypex NCore monos> ATCSCM40 : Ianmac filters
System 2
Engineered SA-NMR Renderer (Ianmac PSU) :Topping D50 DAC.Sony CDP D11 pro: 2*-Hypex Ncore monos: Kef ref1-2.
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Re: Wilmslow ATC SCM100 (K100) + Hypex Fusion?

Postby mojo » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:29 pm

I was watching this pair of SCM40 actives which finished last week:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/183687448071/

Bit cheaper than £6800, but still pretty expensive.

£500-700 for your MkI passives is not exactly generous, given you can get over £1k on Ebay any time you like!

Where does Timbre purport to come from? If it's in my corner of the country (i.e. SE) I might be able to help (by physically going and getting them).